This is an extract from a debate I was having with a very close friend of mine (referred to as X in the rest of the article), who I think is probably one of the most intellectually sound Muslims I know. I am posting it as an example of a good discussion between an intelligent Muslim and an intelligent non-Muslim. Discussions with idiots are not worth posting, though discussions between idiots are quite amusing 🙂
The discussion started after watching this video: Love of Death
X
You know Shup… These people do not represent any religious point of view at all, let alone Islam. Most of the major religions always talk about peace, including Islam. There are some foolish men who are using religion to take control of people for their own personal gain without any proper knowledge.
Shup
Well, these are the people who are influencing most of the Muslim world and how the rest of the world sees the Muslim world, if the moderate or more intellectually sound Muslims don’t take a stand to voice their opinions against them, then all they are doing is silently letting them have it their way.
X
And I agree with you that people need to step forward and stand against them. However when someone like you steps forward and attacks the main foundation of our beliefs then that is not helping either. You attack the religion directly, when you should be attacking the people who misuse the religion.
Shup
The root is where the problem is, these people are using the same source as you are. I have studied the root and the root justifies both views to some extent or the other. I “attack” these people directly, and also “attack” the very foundation from which they derive their rational to do what they do, because the root itself gives justification for their views, even if not in the exact detail they say so.
And again, the most effective way is for intellectually sound Muslims to step forward and say, “This is wrong!” and this is why this and this is wrong. If they don’t voice a strong and rational opinion about this who else can! And not doing so only encourages the fanatics and the fundamentalists to do what they do best, and it leaves people like me to do the only thing that is possible to do, which is to uproot, and rationally dissect where and how they are getting their ideas from and nullify it.
X
From my point of view, none of these are suitable options. When I hear them speak of all this rubbish, I close my ears, and when I hear you attacking my faith directly… Well, again, I close my ears…
Shup
Your entire strategy of closing your ears to outside influence is a form of censorship that has no value at all. At best you are doing nothing. If you want these people to not falsely represent your religion to the world, or give it a bad name, you need to voice your views and opinions and the reasons for them. You need to defend what your religion really is and why you think it is that. Yes, most people close their ears to things they don’t like to hear, that is what gives people like them the upper hand. I only use reason, logic and facts as my weapon, but they use far more dangerous things than that. I don’t attack, I give reason 🙂
X
I am aware that there are many points in the religion that are ambiguous, and I don’t talk about it much because like most people, I have not tried to find out what is actually written in the Koran myself. But when this kind of people talk about something totally self made, which does not even exist in the Koran, then its not fair to attack the religion based on what they have said.
Shup
Actually, that’s not exactly the case. They read the same verse you read and derive their justification from it, where as you derive other meanings from it.
Simple example: Surat al Nisa, verse 4: The end of that verse says that a man can beat his wife if all other efforts fail…
Moderate Muslims think of this in the following ways:
- You can beat your wife lightly (without causing any bruises, cuts or other marks), but only after you have exhausted all other efforts.
- You can beat your wife, but you can not kick, or hit her with a cane or any thing else per say, only the palm of your hands.
- You can beat your wife only if you use a feather or tooth stick (meswak) to do the beating.
And fundamentalist Muslims think in the following ways:
- It is their god given right to beat their wives if they are dissatisfied with them in any way.
- It is their god given right to beat their wives if she does not do as she is told.
- It is their god given right to beat them whenever he feels it is necessary.
Both the moderate and the fanatic parties have added their own meanings, attachments, and rationalizations into that verse, to justify it to their own liking. So who’s views am I to give greater truth to, and why? From my perspective the root itself has a problem and it needs to be looked at, scrutinized for its truth and validity and finally shown to the world for what it really says and is.
If you still haven’t studied at least a bit of the Koran and given it some deep thought, it is probably high time you should, before defending what’s inside it and blindly saying you believe in whatever it says and think that its good for everyone or humanity as a whole.